Hosts Patrick and Eric tackle the topic of alcoholism and addiction with guest Julie, as she relates her journey with alcohol.

You will hear about:

  • Processing an unhealthy relationship with alcohol
  • Dealing with culture shock after moving overseas
  • Figuring out if you might be addicted
  • The role of consistent support
  • How to distinguish between sin and sickness

Resources mentioned during this episode:

Julie: When I got to, like, when our year finished up, I kind of just, like, packaged that as, like, “Oh that was just stupid decision making, that was temporary, that was for that period of time. Like, I’m just gonna continue on with my life and things will be normal.” Um, but it didn’t stay that way.

–Intro–

Pat: Welcome to the Undiscussed podcast, where we talk about the things Christians SHOULD talk about. My name is Patrick.

Eric: And I’m Eric, and we are your co-hosts. And today in the studio, we’ve got Julie with us.

Julie: Hey. Thanks for having me on, guys.

Pat: We’re really excited to have you, Julie.

Eric: And, uh, one of the topics that we would like to discuss that is undiscussed is, uh, that topic of addiction. And, uh, it seems to be something that Christians in churches, um, we’re aware of, talk about it very minimally, but it’s almost like, uh, we don’t know HOW to talk about it. And so, we’re gonna have a conversation with Julie today.

Pat: Yeah, we wanted to talk to you, Julie, specifically because recently you wrote a blog post about this. A series of blog posts, actually, that were super compelling. And I’m a skim-reader, like, even with stuff that I like I just kind of look at the title, like, look at the first words of the paragraphs, kind of make my way through as fast as possible. But I read every single word of your blogs because they were just so, like, vulnerable and open and it was something that I was like, “Yeah, people must be struggling with this. Like, Julie’s not alone in this.” Um, and I really hope that, like, other people resonate. And they seem to have resonated because a lot of people, uh, have shared a little bit, um, of your posts. Like you got a lot of shares, you got a lot of comments. What was the reception that you had to that initially?

Julie: Um, it was taken really well, actually. Um, initially when I was posting it, it was more out of, uh, like I have some friends, and there’s acquaintances that know this about me, but they don’t know the story behind it. Um, and I felt like, “Oh, they’re probably just making a lot of assumptions.” Um, and it gave me the chance to kind of fully explain what was going on, kind of, behind the scenes. Um, so, yeah it was received really well. Um, which, yeah, like, definitely vulnerable to put that out there. Um, but realizing that, like, I can’t be the only one, even though it felt like it. Um, so yeah, received really well. Got a lot of good feedback. Um, and really cool to know that even, like—cause there’s a lot of people that obviously haven’t struggled with this, um, that responded—but even hearing that, like, it’s kind of given THEM a new perspective, uh, was really great to hear.

Eric: Yeah, I was able to read a little bit of it, and you may have noticed a recent friend request.

Julie: Yes, I did see that.

Eric: Yes, that was entirely to try and get-

Julie: Yeah, I figured.

Eric: -the 411 on the blog. And, uh, yeah, really compelling, really challenging and, uh, yeah it made me curious and excited about this interview because I’ve known you for a little while, um, but not super deeply, or, you know, you’ve lived out East and I live in Ontario and that complicates things. But, uh, what would you say were some of the, uh, motivations—uh, you covered some of this—but what were some of the motivations for writing the blog?

Julie: Well, more recently—so, since moving back to Ontario, I haven’t really been in any sort of recovery communities, um, just cause, like, it kind of feels like a life sentence. Like when you’re younger, like, it’s not fun to spend your Friday night, like, sitting in a meeting. So, for me the writing process was, like, helping me, like, understand and just, like, process things. Like, even though it’s—it’ll be three years in June that I stopped drinking, it’s not like it’s something that just gets left in the past. Like, there’s still those, like, obsessive thoughts. Like, there’s still, like, it’s not something that I can just, like, kind of leave, like, “Oh, it’s been three years, like, can close that chapter of my life.” Um, so for me the writing was to help myself understand more, um, and to put words to this thing in my life that, like, I still don’t fully understand, that a lot of Christians don’t understand. Um, and it was also for, um, just in terms of, um, helping the people that know me, know how they can be supportive, um, in a sense. Cause a lot of, like, friends, a lot of, um, family, they don’t know how they can best be there for people going through this, just cause they don’t understand it.

Eric: Yeah, for sure. And, uh, you know, obviously today we’re talking about addiction, and specifically alcohol addiction, with Julie, and uh, you know, before we dive totally in, I’d love to just kind of hear your story, your background. Who are you? You know, what kind of, you know, family environment did you grow up, in? those sorts of things. Because, as you say, you’re not just your addiction and you’re not just this, uh, person for the last three years you, you have a story.

Julie: For sure. Um, so I grew up in a Christian family, going to church, doing the youth group thing. Um, really great family, like, super supportive parents. Um, just a side note, like, never see—growing up, like, never saw my parents drink at all. Like, even in my adult life, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen them drink. So, super great family. Went off to university, uh, went to a university in Ottawa. Um, and up until that point, faith, it was just kind of like this, like, “meh” thing, like we went to church and I felt like I was a good person. Um, in university, in my first year, I got involved with a student ministry to be able to tell my parents I was still doing Christian things, but, like, it wasn’t a priority. It’s not like I went to church or anything during first year. Um, but it was being part of Christian community of people that had a genuine faith and belief in God that really, kind of, started to peak my curiosity. Um, so then I became, I actually became a Christian, beginning of my second year of university, and then got really involved in the student ministry and was a part of, like, bible study groups. And then in my third and final year, I was part of, kind of, the student leadership and getting really involved that way. Um, and ended up doing some internships and joining staff with, uh, the student ministry I was involved in.

Pat: Sounds like a pretty relatable, uh, upbringing to me. It actually mirrors my experience, uh, pretty closely. I think we live in a culture where drinking is kind of like, uh, a social, you know, laid-back, acceptable thing, like, I know a lot of people who just do it on the weekends, and that kind of thing. Um, but for you, you mentioned you’ve never really had, like, a normal, quote-unquote, relationship with alcohol. When did that first become apparent to you, I guess, now in retrospect?

Julie: Yeah, um, so in hindsight, like, I see, even from, like, the first time I ever, like, drank or, like, was legal and could buy alcohol, uh, just my thoughts towards alcohol, it was never normal. Um, so for example, um, if, like, I was gonna be going out to, you know, a pub for dinner and drinks with friends, I would, like, skip a meal just so the alcohol would hit faster. Or, like, even my thought process was, like, “There’s no point in even having a drink if you’re not gonna have enough to, like, hit that, like, buzz, or like, tipsy, cause, like, otherwise why waste the money?” um, sort of thing. And that was, like, going back to, like, the first time I ever drank alcohol and, like, drank it slowly enough that, like, you got to the point of, like, “Oh, like, my cheeks are kind of rosy, like, things are feeling a little loose,” um, like, I was in Britain, actually. And that was, like, you know, fireworks going off of, like, “This is AWESOME, like, why don’t people do this more often?” um, sort of mentality, which, like, at the time I just figured, “Well, everyone feels this way.” And, like, as a Christian, like, that’s where you saw(?) control, and, like, “don’t get drunk” sort of mentality. And, that just, like—and then in university, like, I was capped by the fact that when you’re drinking in a group with other Christians, it’s, like, “I’m very aware of my surroundings,” like, “Don’t push the line too far that, like, they’re gonna then start judging me.” Um, and, like, when you’re a student, you don’t have a lot of money.

Pat: Yeah, natural barriers to drinking a lot.

Eric: And I think one of the tricky things with alcohol is “When am I drunk?”

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: It’s like “I don’t get drunk, ok? You know, I’m just gonna drink three or four or…” you know, you have this arbitrary number and that grows over time.

Julie: And, like, you can—you think you’re completely sober-minded, like, three/four drinks in. Like, “Yeah, I’ve never thought more clear in my life.” Which is not true.

Pat: Yeah, a lot of people, I think, even have that barrier, just that line in the sand. “Well I can drink as much as I want, as long as I don’t get drunk.” Um, and, as long as you stay on the safe side of that line, then, uh, then everything’s fine.

Julie: Yeah, um, and then one thing: another thing I noticed was, so, a lot of times alcoholism is described as “an allergy of the body, an obsession of the mind” so you’re—the more you drink, the thirstier you get. So, you know, one/two drinks in, like, I need more, I need more. Um, which, like, in contrast, when I’m having any other drink, like, I’ll have two cups and be, like, “Ok, like, I’m full. Like, I’ve had enough.” But alcohol I—there’s never an amount that it’s like, “Ok, that’s enough.”

Pat: Yeah, you never hear of someone crushing, like, a twelve-pack of Coke Zero or something in an afternoon.

Julie: Yeah, exactly. And, like, I love Coca-Cola, but I’ll have two and be like, “Ok that’s like…”

Pat: Yeah, “I feel gross.”

Julie: “I’ve hit my max.”

Pat: Yeah, “I need to brush my teeth and go to bed.”

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: For sure. Brought to you by Coca-Cola.

Overlapped, inaudible speech.

Pat: So, yeah, in university you had, you know, those moments where you drank casually, but, uh, even in the back of your mind you never had like, uh, a really good, um, I guess really, relationship with it. Was there a specific moment where it kind of started to begin affecting your life a little bit more? Or was there a season of your time where that happened?

Julie: Um, yeah. So, this would have been…so I’d graduated university and I was in my second internship with, uh, this student ministry, and I was on a team that was going around and launching new student ministries. Um, so we were, like, it was kind of a crazy year. We travelled to four different provinces and were kind of all over the place. You’re in a, like, new city every month. And it was in January of that year, we were staying in this small town out east, and, um, just out of, um, kind of, necessity with rental car situations, um, only three, or two out of our, like, five people could drive the car. We were staying in this little cottage that, like, right on the ocean in the dead of winter. Would have been beautiful in the summertime, but we’re talking, like, dead of, you know, like, Atlantic winter. Um, so there was the, like, this feeling of being trapped and just, like, not a lot of mobility. Um, it was our, kind of, like, first night, first weekend at this little cottage, we’re all staying there as a team, and, uh, we were bored, we were snowed in, and we just kind of started exploring the place, figure out, like, what’s around here, what we’d do. And we found, um, some leftover rum. I’m assuming from, like, the previous people there. Um, so we were all enjoying some Coke and rum and, um, I definitely had a little more rum than Coke. Um, but in that moment it’s like there was this switch of, like, “Oh, right!” like, “I forgot how amazing this is to just, like, liven life up or just like, you know, just, like, chill out, take the edge off.” Um, and this doesn’t have to be in social situations. Like, you can just do this by yourself. That’s fine, like, people do that all the time. That’s completely normal. Um, and that’s where there was this switch of, like, I then started to drink, um, by myself and with, or like, or with people but they weren’t aware, like, pour some rum in a Coke bottle and people will just think it’s Coke. Um, so that’s where, like, there was a major switch in my thinking, just in terms of, like, “Ok, I can do this by myself” and also, I’m not limited by, like, a student budget.

Eric: Were you aware that that switch had taken place, or is it only in retrospect that you’re like “Oh, I can identify”?

Julie: I think I was aware that, like, this probably isn’t, like, the smartest thing, but it’s not all’s all horrible. But in retrospect, I don’t think I realized how much of a switch had kind of taken place. Cause even, like, when I got to, when our year finished up, I kind of just, like, packaged that as like, “Oh, that was stupid decision-making, like, that was, you know, temporary, that was for that period of time. Like, I’m just gonna continue on with my life and things will be normal.” Um, but it didn’t stay that way.

Pat: Yeah, so that was the point when you kind of associated, like, “Oh, alcohol definitely makes life more fun, and if I can make life more fun with my friends, why not, like, without my friends as well?”

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

Pat: It just makes fun in every situation. Yeah, and then, but at that point you never would have, like, thought of yourself as an alcoholic, just someone who’s like “Oh, I maybe should, you know, do this a little less,” or, like, just, yeah.

Julie: Or, like, it was like “Well, like, I know tons of Christians that, like, have a drink at the end of the day. Like, I can do that too. As long as I’m not getting drunk. Like, this is completely fine.” Uh, and there’s no amount of, like guilt or conviction over that. It was like, “Ok, like, I’m moving on from that, Like, that was for that set period of time.”

Pat: And the next stage of your life you spent overseas, and in some ways, this maybe set the stage for how you viewed alcohol or treated it in that situation. Could you share a little bit about that?

Julie: Yeah. So, um, just so you’re aware, so between when this, like, travelling team ended was the summer I was at home support-raising. Um, and I didn’t drink very frequently, but when I did drink, it was always alcoholically in that, like, I always had more than I planned to. And again, like, that thirst of, like, just like, just one more. Like, “I’m thirsty, I need to quench this.”

Pat: Did you ever enjoy the drinks? Like, did you like the taste of these drinks at all? Or was it just a means to an end?

Julie: They’re, at one point—so, as I mentioned, I really like Coke, and at one point I was like, “This rum is, like, ruining the taste of Coke, so I’m just gonna drink the rum by itself.”

Eric: That makes sense.

Pat: Diluting the delicious flavour of Coke Zero, or Coke, or whatever.

Julie: Classic Coca-Cola.

Pat: Classic Coke, yeah.

Eric: Who drinks Coke Zero?

Pat: I dunno. Weird guys, probably, like myself, but…

Julie: I know one person. Um, so yeah, there was that switch. Or, like, anytime that I was going out with friends it was like, “I don’t care about, like, let’s just go for the highest alcohol percentage.”

Pat: Right, yeah.

Julie: Um, or, like, eventually you hit the point of, like, liquor, because it’s a smaller amount of liquid to get the same effect.

Pat: Yeah, more bang for your beer buck.

Julie: Yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah, that was the summer. And I didn’t drink as frequently, but when I did it was alcoholically. Um, and then I moved overseas and was in Uganda for a year doing ministry. Um, which, um, like throughout this time, kind of like praying do I, like, join this ministry here in Canada, but didn’t really feel peace about that, and this opportunity to do ministry overseas kind of popped up. So, was praying about that and felt like God was leading me over there.

Eric: Just to, you know, you just mentioned praying about it. How would you say alcohol was affecting your relationship with God at this time? Like, were you—was it having any effect?

Julie: So, up until, like, this is, like, pre-moving to Uganda, it didn’t really have much of an impact. Like, the couple times where, like, I was, like, aware, like, “Yeah I had too much to drink, like, during this, um travelling year,” and, like, there was repentance and, like, “Ok, God, like, help me to not do that, like, fill me with your spirit, like, give me self control.” Um, but there wasn’t really any guilt. Like, there, um, continuing to, like drink occasionally, but still, like, it wasn’t—it didn’t cross over into having an impact on my relationship with God yet. Which, in hindsight, I’m like, “How?” Like, I don’t see how that kind of, like, can happen, like those two simultaneous things. Um, which is part of, like, the disease itself. Like, it completely skews what is, like, a lie from what is truth. Um, which is one of, like, the marks of it as a disease of, like, just like your thought life is completely destroyed.

Eric: Yeah, so sorry, I cut you off there. You were on your way to Uganda. I just…that was a curiosity question, more than anything.

Julie: Yeah, for sure. Which I—I’ll get more into that later, cause it definitely, like, when it—in Uganda, at a certain point, it started to have a huge impact. Um, so, yeah, went to Uganda and initially, like—usually when you’re moving overseas, they talk about, like, culture shock and, like, the different phases of that, and usually there’s a honeymoon phase at the beginning, and I just went straight to, like, “I don’t like this place. This is not what I was expecting. Why am I here?” Um, like the first night, so we kind of, like, bought everything and took over everything from a previous Canadian team that was there. And we get to our compound, or house, that would be where we would be living for the year and, like, I sit on the couch and I’m like, “That’s like the most uncomfortable couch I’ve ever sat on in my life.”

Pat: That’s a bad start.

Julie: And then, like, I go lay down on my bed and, like, it’s foam mattresses. Um, and I lay down and I feel, like, the wood slats under it, and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I’m never gonna feel physically comfortable in this country. Um, and in that moment, it was like, “If I’m never gonna feel physically comfortable…” I’m also like, “It’s not like I have, like, friends here who can comfort me,” like alcohol was that comfort. Um, right away, there’s this culture shock that’s hit. Um, I’m, like, having these, like, regrets of, like, “God, like, what am I doing here? Like, I felt like you were leading me here and this is not at all what I was expecting.” Um, and then to be in a country that is developing, where, um, being a foreigner, being a white person, like, people want to be your friend because of those two aspects. Not because they want to know you, not because, like, you have common interests. Um, so to feel, like, almost used, um, to not feel seen. Like, I’d just met, like, my team the week before we left to go to Uganda. Um, we didn’t really have a lot of contact with, um, Canadians back home in terms of support. Um, we didn’t have a whole lot of direction in country. And so there was all these things compiling that, like, and I felt anger towards God, but I didn’t actually know how to direct it, like, at him. And, like, I was feeling these things that I didn’t want to feel and alcohol was, like, it was there physically. And, like, it could change how I was feeling, Like, if I just came from a horrible day on campus, like, alcohol could completely change my mood. Um, because, like, I felt like God had led me to this place, I wanted to go up until the point where I was actually in that country, and I wanted to be happy to be there. I wanted to enjoy what I was doing. I wanted to, like, not be having conflict with my team. Um, and I wanted to change all that, and I didn’t know how. I didn’t know how to sit in that and process it. And, like, alcohol was this solution and that, like, had kind of slowly been changing, like, how I’d deal with things, um, since that, like, January, since I’d ever began, like, even had my first drink.

Eric: yeah would you say there’s almost, like, uh, “I deserve this”? “I deserve to feel good in this moment, I deserve to feel good, I deserve to enjoy myself. I’m sacrificing, I’m here in Uganda, you know. I deserve a drink.”

Julie: It wasn’t necessarily that I deserved the drink, but I don’t want to let my team down, I don’t want to let these people that have supported me to go here, like, I don’t want to let them down. Cause, like, during this time, like, I’m still functional, I’m still doing my job. Um, I don’t, like, I feel like I have, like, in a sense betrayed God of, like, “You’ve led me to this thing and I can’t handle it.” Um, which, even in that, like, up until that point, I would have prided myself on being this person that’s, like, pretty laid back, pretty flexible, like, I can handle a lot. Um, and then to get there and not be able to. Like, one of the ways that I would have characteristically described myself was, like, no longer real. And then with dealing with the culture shock, I just felt like this, like, super crappy, worst version of myself. Um, so like, even in, like, our team with getting to know each other, like, I’d always have an answer for, like, in Uganda, but then, like, back home it would be different. Cause, like, I felt like I was a different person. Um, and, with not wanting to let people down with, like, feeling like I was betraying God, it was like, “Well I can change how I’m feeling, like, I can force myself to be happy, to be here.” Um, and that’s how I started using alcohol that way.

Pat: Did it seem to you like, um, your habits, your drinking habits, in Uganda were maybe like the—only because you were in a different situation, like, you were uncomfortable, and that it would be, like, fixed when you got home? It was just a seasonal thing?

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Like there was that belief, like, “Oh, geographical change, that’ll, like, that’ll fix things. I’ll be fine once I’m back in Canada. I’ll be fine.” Like it was always, “I’ll be fine WHEN…” Um, and always expecting this change. Which is kind of another, like, mark of a lot of alcoholics, they also think that way of, like, “Oh this is just, like, for this, like, season. It’s these issues that are causing it,” or like, “Once I’m, like, back in my regular routine.” Like, there’s always, like, another cause for it, for why I’m drinking this way.

Eric: It’s not my fault.

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

Eric: After the break we find out how Julie learned to confront her addiction.

–AD BREAK–

Pat: What changed? Did anything change when you came back, um, from that mission trip?

Julie: Uh, so when I came back…well, when I was in Uganda, um, I had made a decision and was accepted to join staff with the student ministry that I had been working for, that I was involved in as a student. Uh, so the, kind of, the game plan when I came back to Canada was to continue support raising and then go move out East. Um, which even in, when I was in Uganda and wrestling over this, this is when, like, there was, like, this crossover of, like, “If I’m actually a Christian and, like, I’m trying to live spirit-filled, how can I be doing this and using alcohol this way but still feel like God is leading me in student ministry?” Like, this…I can’t comprehend this. Um, but also, like, “Ok, God, I’ll listen to you. And, like, there was, like…in that situation where I’m, like wrestling with these two different things, like, there was no answer. And sometimes it was like, “‘Kay, well I’m just gonna, like, drink these thoughts away.” Um, and other times it was sitting there being, like, “God, like, I can’t handle this. I’m trying to, but also, like, I don’t know what to do.” Um, so like, and then the thought of like, “Well this will end once I’m back in Canada,” was like, okay, so like, again this is just a temporary thing. So, I came back to Canada, was support raising, and in November, after I’d gotten back (I got back in June), I moved out East. Um, and then again in that kind of time span, the drinking had reduced, but again, anytime I did drink, it was alcoholically. Or, like, if I wasn’t drinking, it’d be like, “Oh, like, I know that in the future I will, like, next week I’m going out with friends. Like, I’ll be able to have drinks then.” It’s like—

Pat: It’s there for you when you need it.

Julie: Yeah, and like, the thoughts were still there of like, “I’d like a drink, but I’m not gonna have a drink.” Like, which, and it was partially, I think, like, living back with my parents during this time support raising, like, they don’t have alcohol in their house. It just felt weird to do it there, for some reason. Um, so then I moved out East, and then, like, the geographical change didn’t actually change anything. Um…like, being in a new city, trying to find a new church, um, you know, trying to make friends, it kind of, like, again, all of those, like, different aspects of trying to deal with that, trying to deal with life, um, led to drinking. Um, and it’s…what was so conflicting to me was, like, this is a city that I love, that I wanted to be in. You know, my brother was out there, one of my good friends was there. Like, I knew people in the city, like, I had connections, and yet I was still drinking this way—was super conflicting.

Eric: So, you know, one thing that I’m wondering…the thought occurs to me, you know, people don’t drink cause it doesn’t feel good or people don’t drink cause it doesn’t feel like it works, so my question would be, like: during this time, like, was it working to waylay your fears or to make you feel better or was there, like, was it positive in any way?

Julie: It was temporarily positive, which is why, like, you’ll, like… “Oh, like, tonight I’m just gonna drink a little more than I should cause it’s been a rough day.” And then you’d wake up the next morning and be like, “All those same problems are here, so maybe I’ll just have a drink again.” Um, and you kind of string it together and, like, spend your weekend not making good decisions, or just, like, avoiding the things that you know you need to deal with. And still, like, in those moments of, like, thinking like, “’Kay, I’ve had too much to drink, I’m at the point of, like, tipsiness or, like, really buzzed,” and still, like, struggling of like, “God, like, I don’t know how I got to this point, like, I set out to have, like, two drinks, just to kind of take the edge off.” Like, I didn’t, in those moments, know how to, like, deal with what was happening. Like, it was outside of my control, but then there was also these obsessive thoughts, like, “I set out to have two drinks, I’m now, like, six in, like, I don’t know how I got here and I don’t know how to stop.” And then came the thoughts of, like, “But I’m a Christian, like, I should just be able to, like, I’m gonna, like, repent, I’ll ask for forgiveness and I won’t have this many next time.” Like there was this genuine belief of, like, “It won’t get to this extent next time.” Um, and thinking, like, “I just need to be more spirit-filled, I just need to have more self-control.” Like, the idea of, like, “You shouldn’t drink at all,” it never crossed my mind. The idea that I could even be an alcoholic, it never crossed my mind.

Pat: It follows a familiar pattern, I think, to anyone who is addicted to anything. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if people are listening to this now, thinking, “Oh, no I do that with things all the time!” Like, there is this process of, like, justification, and, like, excusing it and just saying, like, “Oh, yeah, you know, today it’s fine,” or, like, “I actually don’t have a problem, like, I can stop whenever I want to.” Um, and that was a pattern for a while. Were there any key moments or conversations or anything that led you to get past that and feel like, “Oh, maybe this actually is, uh, something that I need to address in a different way than just simply doing better”?

Julie: Um, so around…um, so I moved there in November, this is around the end of January…I had housemates who, they kind of knew what was going on, but certainly not to the extent that it was. Um, and they kind of suggested, like, “I’m not at a place where I can help you, but you should, like, find someone to talk to and deal with this.” And the way that I kind of took that was rejection. Um, so I was like, “Ok, like, if this person who I know really well is…like this is how I’ve taken what she, or what they have, like said to me, like, I can’t tell anyone else cause, like, that’ll just be more rejection.” Um, and so, like, I started, like, processing myself, like, making lists of, like, “Ok, let’s, like, figure out what is, like, sparking this and I’ll just cut that out.” And so, like, I go through and make this list, and I get to the end and I’m like, “So basically, like, any feeling makes me want to drink.” Like, there’s no, um, bad time to drink. There’s no bad day to drink. Um, and, like, at this time, it was still outside the hours of work. So, like, I’m functioning. And that’s one of the other reasons why I was like, “This can’t be, like, that big of a problem. I’m still doing my job. Based on, like, how I’ve seen alcoholics depicted in movies and media, like, they’re like falling over drunk, they’re losing their job, their, like, life savings are spent. None of those things are happening to me. Like, it can’t be that bad.” Um, but I did, at the end of January, decide, like, “I can just take a break.” Um, so I stopped drinking for about a month-and-a-half period. And I was reading this book at the time, um, it’s called something, like, The Girl on the Train, or something. It was made into a movie, if you want to check that out.

Pat: I watched the first three minutes. I couldn’t deal. I’m sure the book’s really good though.

Julie: Um, it’s good! It’s super descriptive, um, which for me was a bad thing, cause the main character in that book was an alcoholic. And the way that the author described, like, that process of, like, that first drink of, like, oh, of that release, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I need a drink.” Um, so after, like, a month and a half, I was like, “Ok, like, that’s a long time. I can have a drink.” And then it just kind of, like, escalated super quickly, cause then my housemate was gone for the majority of that spring. So, it’s not like I was trying to hide it at home anymore. Um, and yeah, things—like it just got more out of control than I realized it really was. But that whole time, like, again, like, the disease, like, mentally, it’s completely distorting what is, um, like, truth from a lie, of, like, still believing, like, “I’m completely sober-minded, I’m in complete control, like, this isn’t that bad. I can stop if I want to. I just stopped for a month and a half, so that’s proof enough.” That sort of thing.

Eric: Even your words there just, you know, “I didn’t have to hide it from my roommate,” you know…where you consciously hiding the behaviour? Like, were you able to sit back and realize, “This is what I’m doing”? Like, cause that would imply, you know, you had some sort of recognition that it was wrong, or it wasn’t healthy or helpful for you.

Julie: Right, um, which, in that, like, I definitely was hiding, like, empty bottles. Or, like, I’d take out the recycling so, like, I could stick stuff in last-minute.

Eric: Oh, what a helpful roommate.

Julie: Yeah. Which, like, in my mind, like, the thoughts are saying, like, “There’s some Christians that they’re just a little more conservative, they don’t understand that, like, it’s okay to have a drink.” Um, it was this twisting of, like, the…like, what other Christians would be thinking of me, of, like, there’s just some people that are a little more, like, uptight about it. Um, and, like, I don’t need their judgement, so they don’t need to know. Which is a complete distortion of, like, what was actually going on. Um, cause my housemate, like, um, they were a Christian that, like, they would drink occasionally. Like, it’s not like they were this super-conservative view on alcohol. Um, but like, my thoughts were so twisted that, like, it was justified by, like, “Well there’s Christians out there that are super uptight and, like, they just, they don’t need to know this.” Like, they’re the people that you don’t invite to the party, sort of thing.

Pat: You mentioned, uh, earlier that this is just over three years of sobriety for you now?

Julie: So, this is coming up beginning of June.

Pat: Right, yeah.

Julie: It’ll be three years, which to me seems so crazy cause there are still days where I’m like, “This can’t—Like, I’m just being dramatic, this can’t actually be real. Maybe I could have another drink.” And then, like, the thoughts of, like, “Well it wouldn’t just be one drink. Cause what’s the point of having one drink? That doesn’t do anything.” And, like, “Well maybe, like, just do, like, a two-minute or two-drink max.” Well, no, cause that’s, like, that’s not really enough to get to, like, a nice, like, place. Like, you’re not gonna get really, like, buzzed or tipsy from that. What if you just, like, drank one weekend a month? Well, like, why, like, just one? Why not every weekend? And just, like, it snowballs completely.

Pat: So yeah you mentioned before also that, uh, like, you just tried to be better and that didn’t work. And then you started coming to a realization, like, “No, this is an issue.” Like, your friend read that checklist and you were just like, “Oh, I just want to drink all the time.” What were the steps or what helped you go from that to making the step of actually getting to this point here?

Julie: Um, so there was kind of, like, three different scenarios that had an impact on that. Um, one of them being…so throughout this time, it was part of my regular routine to go to the gym, and one of the friends that I worked out with, like, was a, you know, pretty big partier. Um, but I showed up one morning—it was, like, a Wednesday morning—and I was still, like, a little bit hungover, um, and I told them, like, “This is gonna be, like, more of a, like, slow workout for me because, like, just not feeling that well from last night.” And, um, this friend was shocked. Like, his reaction being like, “That’s not normal.” And to hear this coming from someone who would, like, self-describe as, like, “Yeah, I’m a partier; I drink a lot,” of like, oh, if they think this isn’t normal…like, maybe I should, like, think about this more. Um, so there was that. There was like “this isn’t normal,” like, weeknights…like, it had gotten to the point where, like, I would drink on weeknights. Um, and to hear, like, “That’s not normal.” So, I’m thinking about that. Um, and then, like, I got to a point one night where, like, I messaged a friend of a friend… Um, so, going back to, like, mid-January, in a conversation that I have no recollection of, aside from my housemate mentioning this friend of a friend who was also a Christian and a recovering alcoholic, um, like I, in that moment, recalled this person and messaged them through Facebook and was like, “Hey, so like, I just want to, kind of, pick your brain about Alcoholics Anonymous. Uh, can we meet up?” Um, and my thought behind that was, like, not that I was an alcoholic, but, like, this is more of a struggle for me than most people. Like, maybe they can help, have some pointers, that sort of thing. So, I met with this friend of a friend and she went through this, like, checklist that AA has of, like, signs that you could potentially be an alcoholic. And if you tick off, like, it’s like four out of twelve or something, like, you’re probably an alcoholic. Um, so we go through that list and I’m, like, hit more than four. Um, and just, like, sitting there in complete shock. We kind of, like, tie things up, I leave, I still have a couple meetings that day, um, but I’m walking home in just, like, denial and shock. Like how can a Christian, um, missionary, who comes from, like, a really, like, great home be an alcoholic? That, like, that blew my mind. It didn’t make any sense to me. Um, but the minute my work day was over, like, I started drinking just to get rid of this thought of, like, “I could be an alcoholic.” Which, like, is ridiculous. Like, “Hey! Like, get some help now!” Um, but, um…it wasn’t quite yet. Um, but in that meeting, this friend of a friend, she invited me to an AA meeting on the Saturday morning. So, we met on the Wednesday, like, I drank that night, probably drank the Thursday night. Uh, we went to the AA meeting on the Saturday morning, and it was a birthday meeting for them. So, every month, um, an AA group would celebrate all the birthdays of that month. So, hitting sobriety milestones. Uh, you know, one year, five years, like, however many years. Like, it was just a bunch of birthdays that people were celebrating. Um, so I sit through that meeting, uh, like, still in complete, like, shock, like, “I am not one of these people. This cannot be my life. This for sure could not be my reality. Like, I can’t be that bad.” Um, I leave in complete shock with the intention of, like, “I’m just gonna go home and process this.” Um, ended up going straight to, like, the liquor store, um, and bought alcohol, and, like, drank the rest of the day, of like, just not being able to, like, comprehend and deal. Like, “What the heck is going on with my life? How did I get to this point?” Um, so…and drank most of that weekend, just, like, out of not knowing how to deal with this, and not knowing what do I do now? Um, and then, on that Monday evening, there was an AA group that met, like, five minutes from my apartment. And this friend of a friend, she texted me to come with her. And, um, so I had been drinking that day. Like, I took the day off, just wanting more time to process. And, um, so I’d been drinking. I fell asleep and I woke up right at 7:30, right when this meeting was supposed to start, and I texted her back saying, “Hey, just got your text. Like, is it too late to come?” And she said that it wasn’t and just to meet her there. Um, and so again, sat through another AA meeting. And, um, at the end, she kind of walked up with me to the, uh, 24-hour chip (so that’s a commitment to not drink for the next 24 hours) and a bunch of phone numbers of people that attended that group, um, cause in AA they tell you, like, if you’re having thoughts, if, like, your, just, the obsessiveness is going, like, reach out. Um, text someone, call someone, that sort of thing. Um, so that was that. Like, that was the beginning of, like, “Ok, like we’re gonna stop drinking.”

Pat: I think one of the most interesting parts of this, uh, conversation—it’s all interesting—but what I find fascinating is that, like, you say that you never thought that, like, a Christian could become an alcoholic. It’s always the other way around. It’s like, “Oh, Christians aren’t alcoholics. Like, alcoholics become Christians, and then their lives are, you know, they’re changed.” It’s different, and, like, God saves you from that. Um, what was it like being, um, in, like, a Christian community, like, as a missionary? Like, was it, um, was it helpful? Like, did you have friends that were, like, that helped guide you in the process? Were you thankful you were in a Christian community?

Julie: Um, well kind of two parts to that, or two answers to that question. So, uh, because my life had been so transient—like, this whole time, like, I was on this travelling team, I was in Uganda, I was at home, like, my parents’ home for a little bit, then I, like moved out east—like, there was no, like, consistent Christian community, like, support system. Um, but then the times where I was in Christian community, like, there’s this façade of, like, “Well they all have it together. They all seem to be, like, they don’t struggle with this.” Like, it’s just me. Like, there’s something wrong with me. Um, but around this time that, like, I stopped drinking, this friend of a friend, um, she went to a church that…part of its common language was talking about, like, life’s messiness. Um, they mentioned addiction in their church. Like, it was a church in the city, which I know one huge difference, having grown up in the suburbs where it’s a predominantly white, middle-class church, like, it’s all, like, a manicured Sunday. Like, everyone looks their best, everyone, like, talks about how great life is. Whereas being in this church in the city, like, just like super upfront, very common language, like, everyone is aware and, like, upfront about “Life is messy. Like, we’re figuring this out. Um, by God’s grace we’re doing life together in community. There are people in our church who have struggled with addiction, there are people that are struggling with addiction now.” And so, to hear that and be like, “Oh, there’s other Christians that, like, this is something they are addressing, that it is actually present in their lives,” it was such, like, a relief and change compared to what I had experienced in terms of Christian communities that I had been in. Um, so initially when I, like, started going to this church, like, newly sober, like, still in complete shock and almost denial of like, “’Kay, I’m not gonna drink, but this still, this can’t be my reality, I’m just being dramatic, like, I’ll give it a couple months” sort of thing. Um, so anyone that I told, it was kind of a need-to-know basis or, like, they saw that, like, I was entering, like, an AA meeting and, like, feel like I need to tell them now. Um, and anyone that I did…um, like, share this with, they were supportive in that they, like, they thanked me…yeah, they thanked me for telling them, um, they kind of, like, said how brave I was for actually telling them, um, and they, like, apologized for having to struggle through it by myself. Um, but again, like in my first year of sobriety, I wasn’t really public with it at all. Um, as I mentioned, it was more of, like, a need-to-know basis. Um, I know one good experience I had was, so this, like, my final year, or my first year sobriety was my final year working for, uh, this student ministry, and coming up towards the end, I was going to be helping with leading a mission trip. And so, I told the leader of, like, the mission trip, just cause, like, up until that point I’d been going to kind of AA meetings, kind of meeting with a sponsor, um, but realizing that, like it could be kind of a bit of a shock to the system to be now, like, leaving the supports that I had, like, moving away from my church. Um, and it was taken really well. Super supportive. Um, they showed a lot of care. Um, and also, like, they wanted to know my story of, like, “Ok, like thank you for telling me, like, what happened? And, like, how are you doing now?” They showed a lot of care that way.

Pat: Yeah, and was it the same person you mentioned in earlier conversation that, like, that there was a moment where they, like, celebrated with you as well? Or was this a different…?

Julie: Yeah, so this, uh, this same person who was a friend of mine, um, they…so, during this mission trip, like, I hit my one year of sobriety, which, like, for me, like, I…didn’t know how I was gonna handle it, um, and on that day we were kind of in transit between leaving the country we were in to go to another one for debrief. I just, like, it was…I think I was just in a lot of, like, shock that day of, like, “How do I comprehend this?” Like, I was still trying to understand it. Like, I still, even with a year under my belt, couldn’t understand how I actually became an alcoholic or, like, was a recovering alcoholic. And, um, like, I didn’t know how to deal with it. And I didn’t feel like I could celebrate this thing, cause there was still so much shame attached to it. Um, but this friend, she gave me a card, and she gave me candies, and it just showed a lot of care on their part of, like, “I want to celebrate how God is redeeming this in your life. Like, one year is a really long time. Like, that’s awesome. I want to celebrate that for you.” At a time where, like I couldn’t actually celebrate for myself. Um, which was, like, in hindsight, that was incredible of them to do that.

Eric: What was the hardest part of that year? Like was it…so there’s probably…there’s few different parts that I can think of, like admitting to yourself that you have a problem, not drinking part, or, like, being open with people, or what aspects of coming clean, getting sober, and all of that, were the hardest for you?

Julie: Oh goodness. All of it? Um, especially within, like, the first month of sobriety, like, I can just remember, like, pacing my apartment being like, “I just want to drink so badly right now.” Um, and even having a hard time, like, so in AA, like, it’s like a really amazing community for reaching out for help, for people understanding, for, like, no judgment, of, like, “It sucks being an alcoholic, a recovering alcoholic. It sucks that this is something that you have to deal with.” Um, but they’re all, a lot of recovering alcoholics, are really good at reaching out for help of, like…sharing what’s going on, like, with the thoughts that they’re experiencing, that sort of thing. Um, for me, like, even the idea of reaching out for help was still really hard. So, like, I still felt like I needed to deal with it on my own. Like, I was going to AA meetings, like, occasionally I would talk to a friend outside of those meetings, but it was, like, there was thoughts. Like, I still felt like I was alone in that, like, they’re in my head, I just need to deal with them. Um, but they’re, like, constantly, like, racing. “Just have a drink. Like, a drink won’t be that, like, bad. Like, you can do it. It wasn’t that big of a problem. You can handle it now.” Um, those sort of thoughts. So, like, pacing my apartment, just being like, “Nope, we’re not gonna do this. Like, just, like, get to a point where you know, like, the liquor store closes. Like, just make it another hour.” Um, and then, yeah, so, like, I think that first month was super hard, um, but even just, like, within that first year of trying to figure out, as a Christian, like, how do I actually maintain sobriety? Like what does recovery look like? “Cause in AA they, like, it’s a spiritual program. Like, it’s all about, um, you know, admitting your powerlessness over alcohol and, like, surrendering to your higher power and, like, living out of that higher power and helping your, like…they say “a higher power,” for a Christian, it’s God. Uh, allowing God to, you know, give you self control, um, that sort of thing. And to me, I’m like, “Well that’s what I was trying to do before I stopped drinking. Like, I was constantly asking God for help, and, like, nothing happened. Like, that didn’t help. So, like, what is different now?” And it was the fact that there were a community of a people. But I still felt this disconnect of, like, “But none of you are Christians. If this is a spiritual program, shouldn’t I be able to, like, be in community with, like, Christians and people that I know and have, like, established trust and relationship with?” Um, so yeah, feeling a lot of conflict with, like, kind of, like, those two thoughts.

Eric: Yeah, one of the lines from, uh, one of the articles that you wrote, or blogs that you wrote, that really struck me was, uh…I’m gonna, not quote it, but paraphrase it, that “your AA group felt more safe than your church group.” And, you know, that made me really sad, uh, you know, that as a Christian, I might be doing the same thing to someone near me that, like… How would you comment about what made it feel safer, uh, to be in your AA group than your church group?

Julie: Um, so in an AA group it’s like everyone acknowledges how powerless they are over alcohol and they need each other to maintain their sobriety, they need each other in recovery, and everyone’s just straight-up honest with, like, “Today, it sucked. There was a lot of obsessive thoughts. I wanted to drink. I want to drink right now. But I’m here instead and I’m, like, in community, and I’m speaking truth to those lies.” Um, whereas in a lot of Christian communities, um, what I have experienced, what I still, kind of, what is still my perspective, is, like, there is this, like, category of what is acceptable to admit to and then, like, what is, like too deep. So, like, I’d have no problem saying, like, “Oh, it’s been a rough week, I’ve had a hard time making God a priority and getting into the Bible. I’m having a hard time loving my housemate, or my neighbours.” That sort of thing. Whereas if I were to be like, “Well, like, this week’s been rough. Just, like, lot of obsessive thought about alcohol, like, I want a drink,” like, it’s almost like it’s, like, inappropriate to say. Like, if you have a Bible study group and everyone’s going around being like, “Oh, I’m having a hard time loving my kids this week,” “Oh, my husband and I have been having conflict,” “Oh, like, I just haven’t been getting into the Word,” and I’m like, “Oh, like, I’ve been thinking about alcohol a lot. I really want a drink,” like, it’s like the whole room goes silent, like, type of mentality.

Pat: I think that’s probably one of the main points of why we wanted to do this podcast is that, like, it’s this weird phenomenon for me to experience, like, a Christianity where people just are terrified of talking about certain things or going a little bit deeper. Like, I have the same experience of like, you know, you’re in a small group, you just have like the Sunday School, like, “pray for me” requests where it’s like, “I want to read my Bible more,” or, like, “I just want to, like, prioritize my life a little better,” and then someone does that. It takes the air out of the room and people don’t know how to respond. And I think the optimist in me wants to think that, like, people want to maybe engage with that, but they don’t know how. They don’t know, like the language. They don’t know how far into someone’s life they’re, like, permitted to go. Um, and in reading your blog, I actually, I looked back on myself and I’m like, “Wow, there have been some situations in my life where someone has opened up to me and I felt paralyzed and I, the questions in my head are like: should I dig deeper? should I ask them to, like, to open their life to me more? and if someone says they’ve had a traumatic experience, is it worse for me to, um, like, say nothing or to, like, I don’t know, get them to relive it and tell me? Are they tired of talking about it? Um, so what would your advice be to, like, the Christians in that scenario where someone opens up to them, uh, and they kind of don’t know what to do?

Julie: Which is, like, that’s…that’s the thing, right? I think, like, for me, personally, any time, like, in the past three years, like, um, you know, whether it be, like, one-on-one sharing with a friend about it, or just, like, being upfront, like “Hey, “I’m a recovering alcoholic,” or, like, even with posting the different blogs, like, on the blog, um, to me that was like a step of, like, “Hey, this is something in my life.” Um, but there…not a lot of people actually, like, you know, if I was in, like, meeting with a friend and told them, they didn’t ask more questions, and to me, I was like, “Ok, I’m taking this first step of, like, telling you,” and to me that’s, like, invitation to, like, you can ask questions if you want, without me… And maybe I should have just been like, “Hey, so this is happening. Ask me any questions you want.” But even in situations where I did that, like, they just kind of seemed stunned.

Eric: Yeah, did you see the latest Avengers movie?

Julie: Yeah, it was…really hard to watch. Um, and a lot of Christians, like, they don’t know how to enter that space. And I don’t think we’re good at leaning into the hard conversations, or even admitting, like, “Honestly, like, I don’t know how to respond, but I, like, I love you and I care for you and I want to learn more about your story if you’re willing to share.”

Pat: That sounds like a great response that, like, should be logical, but for some reason it’s just hard to say those words.
Julie: It is.

Eric: Would you say there are, like, questions or phrases or things that are just supremely not helpful?

Julie, I know, so, in kind of the span of telling people, I can only think of one situation where the response was, like, “If I got that early in my sobriety, I probably would not have told anyone else.” Um, and it was a situation where, um, this had come out and what was being…like what the person on the other side of the conversation wanted was, um, like me asking for forgiveness for, like, breaking, you know, like, contract, like lifestyle contract. Um, and to hear them just seeing the sin in, like, this huge thing that’s happened in my life, was the least helpful thing possible. Um, because with alcoholism, yes, it’s fair to say that there were sinful decisions that I made in that process, but alcoholism is also a disease, um, which I don’t think a lot of Christians would, like—first of all, it’s not like a lot of Christian are looking into alcoholism—but I think a lot of Christians still think, like, “Oh, it’s sin therefore we can deal with it the same way we deal with any sin.”

Pat: Yeah, just be better.

Julie: Yeah, exactly. Which is what I was trying to do. I was like, “Well I just need to be more spirit-filled, like, I need to, like, pray for self-control,” and those things weren’t working. So, for someone to hear someone’s story and only see sin in it is not helpful whatsoever. Cause there is a whole story behind it of, like, what led to this, of, like, “Well there’s genetic predisposition cause there’s alcoholism in my family, and, like, there was all these compounding factors.” And, like, there’s so much more to it than just, like, “I sinned against God.”

Pat: Yeah, the distinction that sticks out to me so much in just, like, helping sympathize with people who are struggling with things like this is, like, distinguishing between sin and sickness. And, like, sickness is, like, a result of sin, right? But when someone is sick you don’t blame them or judge them for being sick. You walk alongside them and you try to care for them and you help them. And I think, just historically, maybe, people have associated, like, things like alcoholism with, “Oh you’re just making bad choices. You’re indulgent,” and that kind of thing. And trying to view it as something that, like, people, it’s a disease it’s a sickness, um, it should help people come a bit closer to, like, empathizing and caring and wanting to walk alongside it rather than sit there in judgement.

Eric: For sure. You know, and it makes me think, like, the flip side of that, you know, “don’t just see the sin in my life and judge me; help me.” What are some phrases or questions that you WISH that people asked you more of, or, you kind of touched on that a little bit, but…

Julie: Um, even just asking, like, about the, like, what happened. Like, how are you handling life? Like, what’s the story behind it? Cause…for me, when I’ve shared this with someone and they’ve, like, they’ve been supportive in that, like, they’ve, liked, thanked me for sharing with them and said sorry for, like, that I struggle with that, um, but now I’m thinking, “Oh, you just, like, you’re probably making a lot of assumptions or you’re judging me, cause you don’t actually know the full story.” Um, so to show a level of care where you’re wanting to know more. Um, cause I think that increases empathy for the person, but also addicts in general. Um, cause I think, like, in, like, society has this view that addicts are like lazy, like, no-good people, like, “You got what you deserved.”

Pat: The bad guys.

Julie: “You drink too much.” Like, that sort of a thing. Um, and that’s not…that’s not gonna help them.

Eric: Um, just one quick question that came to mind, um, that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. Uh, for the person out there who is thinking, like, “Uh, I have this problem, I should maybe go to a group or, but AA— or, you know, if it’s not alcohol, like, whatever other “A”—meetings, uh, are not a Christian ministry, you know, why wouldn’t I seek out some Bible study group or a Christian ministry or something like that? Like, why go to AA?

Julie: I feel like I’m probably not the best person to answer this cause, like, A) I don’t currently go to AA, um, just cause I hit a point of realizing that, like, AA isn’t the only way to do recovery and be in sobriety. Um, I would say, like, if you don’t know where to go, like, find an adult, um, which, like, I’m realizing in hindsight, like, that would have been helpful. Cause, like, I was 22 when, like, it initially, like, that first, like, kind of switch happened. Like, 22-year-olds, they’re still kids. Like, they don’t know what’s going on in life. No offense to the 22-year-olds out there.

Pat: I’m 29 and I have no idea, so I relate.

Julie: Like, whether it be, like, a path, like someone who is safe, that you feel safe sharing this with, but can either, um, like, lead you in the right direction of, like, maybe you need to speak to a counsellor, maybe it’s a pastor, maybe it’s someone who has dealt with addiction themselves. Um, and there are Christian recovery programs like, um, Celebrate Recovery. So, AA is not the only thing out there to help you. Um, I was told recently of, like there’s no one right way to do recovery. Like, whatever is helping you remain sober is the right way for you. And that could change over time. Like, I, in my first year of sobriety, like, I was in AA for three months, and then I, like, stopped going and the thoughts got super bad and just, like, life was not good. And I went back to AA for a while, and I had a sponsor for a little bit, and then I moved to Ontario. And, like, it’s gonna have its ups and downs, it’s gonna look different at different stages. Um, there’s no right way of reaching out for help as long as, like, you are actually doing that.

Eric: Just before we wrap up, um, I know, in doing some personal work with, like, some of the things that I struggle with, my counsellor has said, you know, “Relapse is part of recovery.” And I’m like…skeptical when I first heard her say that. I’m like, “I’m not trying to relapse here. I’m trying to recover.” And, um, but I have, you know, since then, as I relapse, I have had, you know, less shame and so on associated with that because I’m like, “I’m still growing, I’m still taking positive steps.” How would you comment on that in your personal story?

Julie: Um…good question. I haven’t relapsed. Um, I think that in some recovery communities there’s, like, too much clinging to, like, “You can’t relapse.” Um, because then it will just keep happening over and over. Um, I think that we should have the perspective, especially, like outsiders—like, if someone in your, kind of, like, um, you know, friend group, or, like, part of your community relapses, is like, I personally, like, one of the things I like, don’t…don’t do it, cause I’m afraid of, like, the shame that it’s gonna feel. Like, there’s already lingering shame from the fact that I am a recovering alcoholic, um, and to think, like, “Oh, if I relapse and start drinking again, like, so many people know that, like, I’m about to reach three years, like, then I’d be back to zero.” Of, like, we’re not defined by that, like, the number of, you know, months or years of sobriety, we’re not defined by, um, like, being a recovering alcoholic, or recovering anything. Um, that our identity is in Christ and that, like, to be brothers and sisters, to be a community, like, we need to rally around the people that need support without thinking about, like, the sin that you’re struggling with and, like, whether you relapsed one time or a thousand times. Like, continue to be there and show love. And even if it does mean putting up boundaries of, like, maybe you can’t be in their life because of the, like, they just are at a point of recklessness where they’re not reaching out for help or they’re not doing the best they can, of, like, continuing to love them, um, and be there for them from a distance. I don’t know if this has actually answered your question. I feel like I’ve gone down a rabbit trail.

Eric: It’s ok.

Pat: Yeah, it’s a good rabbit trail. This is, like, this whole conversation is a, like, way to process and go through this, right? We were mentioning before, in our intro that, like, we’re not experts. And, again, you’re on a journey, like, you haven’t come to the end of your journey. So, we’re hoping that this discussion will, uh, will be just that: like, an opportunity to have a platform to have those conversations, and I think that one of the things that, just, I’m taking away from this that’s actually hit me, and I hope it will affect how I approach these things in the future, is that, like, the fear of not having those conversations with people who I know are struggling, um, I should just get over that and take a step towards having that conversation because in silence we’re actually, like, hurting those other people. If they don’t want to talk, they can…they can choose to say “no.” Um, but just by, like, reaching out and asking questions and showing interest and care in someone’s life, it gives them the opportunity to know that they’re not being judged. And, um, I don’t…I think I can sacrifice myself looking stupid in a couple of conversations for the sake of, um, having a good conversation. What would be some final thoughts that you’d like to leave with people who are listening to this and might actually resonate with what you’re saying?

Julie: Um, I have a couple. The first one, going back to Eric’s question, actually, about relapse, um, I think silence is actually a huge thing that contributes to relapse. Um, for one, the person who is relapsing, their silence of not, like reaching out for help. And being in a community, being in a group where they’re silent about, like, stuff like addiction, if that’s, like, a conversation that never happens, like of course you’re not gonna bring it up to the people that probably are the ones that love you and care about you the most. Um, so I think silence is a huge reason why relapse happens, and a huge way that, um, we can help those that are struggling to not relapse is, like, be there for one another. Be there for one another, have those hard conversations, not know how to have those conversations and still have them. Um, another thing is celebrate your friends and their recovery. Um, celebrate for them when they’re not actually able to do it themselves. Um, and…there was one more thing I was gonna say, but I totally can’t remember. Yeah, it’s gone.
Pat: Those are good ones though.

Eric: Yeah, I want to personally thank you for the blog, for being so open, and starting the conversation. You know, we’ve called this podcast Undiscussed because these are things that are undiscussed in the Christian community, often. And, like you say, silence doesn’t breed anything positive, you know? The Bible even talks about bringing your sin into the light and bringing things to the light because, you know, God says, “What do I have in common with darkness?” And so, as we talk about these things and as we bring things into the light, there’s tremendous opportunity for healing, for wholeness, for growth. And uh, you know, I know that your blog even sparked good conversations between Pat and I as we’re, you know, walking to Timmy’s, to not be addicted to, uh…

Pat: Coffee.

Eric: Coffee, or…

Pat: That’s the truth! I need to get over this coffee addiction, man. The acceptable sin in life.

Eric: And other things. But, uh, you know, people like you in the community, who are taking that step of bravery to be open and to talk about things, you know, I want to celebrate that and really thank you, uh, because there’s not enough people doing that.

Julie: Well, thank you so much for having me on your podcast and letting me share your story. One of the reasons why I did is, like, I…when I was struggling, I didn’t know any Christians who became alcoholics. I still don’t personally know anyone who’s had that experience. So hopefully this, you know, helps those that are struggling, and for those that just aren’t aware of the struggle with addiction, that it’s kind of opened their eyes and, um, brought more empathy to them for those that are struggling.

Pat: Yeah, I strongly feel like there will be a lot of people out there who identify with what you’re saying and will be glad we’re starting to have this conversation. So, really appreciate you coming in and sharing with us.

–Outro–

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