Episode 3 – Sexual Abuse with Rachael Denhollander Part 1

Pat: This episode deals with some sensitive content, so listener’s discretion is advised

Rachael: Sexual abuse is something that is rarely handled properly. Most pedophiles, most sexual abuse takes place with someone that you know and so the abuser is very skilled at using circumstances, at using grooming techniques, at ingratiating themselves into a community so that if a survivor ever speaks up, and ever says, “Something’s happening that shouldn’t be happening”, they will not be believed.

–Intro–

This week we discuss sexual abuse with Rachael Denhollander.

Pat: Hello and welcome to another episode of Undiscussed, the podcast where we talk about the things that we think Christians should talk about. The premise behind the show is that in any Christian circles, whatever you happen to belong to, whatever denomination, whatever organization that you belong to… It’s likely that there are certain topics that are routinely avoided because people don’t know how to use the right language or they don’t know how to say the right things or even speak towards biblical truths. There’s a variety of reasons why certain topics are ignored and on this show we want to create a space where we can have those discussions that we can learn from each other and just make productive changes to how we view things and how to be more loving as Christians and more empathetic and listen better to others and to their stories. So, this is gonna be a great episode. I’m really excited. Particularly because we have a guest host with us today. You might know her from such YouTube videos as Pat and Suz explain Schtuff. Suz will be joining me as the co-host today. Welcome to the show, Suz.

Suz: Thanks Pat

Pat: Thanks for co-hosting with me.

Suz: I’m happy to be here. I’m a little nervous but…

Pat: It’s totally normal.

Suz: Is it?

Pat: Yeah.

Suz: Ok.

Pat: Yeah absolutely. I’m nervous all the time and it’s probably because of how much coffee I drink, but it’s ok, you’ve just gotta lean into it.

Suz: Ok. Yeah, I’m leanin’.

Pat: So, we’ve been talking about this…the issue that we’re going to be addressing in this episode for a while. And, just a warning to any listeners, this episode is about sexual abuse in and outside the church. So if that’s a sensitive topic to anybody listening, be aware, be warned. If it’s not the right time for you to listen to it, totally ok. Come back to it another time, but just a little bit of a disclaimer. But, yeah, sexual abuse is what we’re gonna be tackling today which is pretty weighty and there’s a lot of gravity to that issue. Suz, why are you so passionate about talking about this?

Suz: Yeah, I think as a female it’s important just because of some of the statistics around sexual abuse for females and I am passionate about calling out injustice where there is injustice. And this is just such a hidden thing that people don’t talk about it, and I think damage is done when we don’t talk about it. So, I’m feeling empowered specifically, or especially, because of the guest that we have today. I’m just encouraged by her bravery and courage and her relentless pursuit of the gospel and the hope that is found there. So, I’m passionate because of her.

Pat: So yeah, and I think I relate to that too. I was really excited for this conversation too which I acknowledge is a weird thing to be excited about but it’s because the person that we have on this show, which I promise I’ll introduce them in a couple of seconds here, has been a great example of clinging to the truths of the gospel and holding onto a beautiful theology while standing up for herself, calling out injustice, and just being a strong voice for those who haven’t found that voice yet and who haven’t had that opportunity to step out in faith and call out sin in this area. So, without further ado, we’d like to introduce Rachael Denhollander to the podcast. Rachael, welcome.

Rachael: Thanks. It’s great to be here.

Pat: Yeah, we’re so happy to have you and today just want to give a little of an introduction, if it’s wrong just let me know…If you want to fill in any gaps but former gymnast, and you know have a degree in law and you are a mother of three, soon to be four, actually at the time this is released you will have a beautiful fourth child.

Rachael: There will be.

Pat: And you are an active advocate for abuse survivors and there’s so much more to you than that. There’s so much more to your story than that. But, does that kind of cover all the hats that you happen to wear these days?

Rachael: I think it does. I lose track of them though.

Pat: Yeah, I’m not surprised at all. There are many hats that you wear. So, you have shared your story so many times. I mean even just before this interview we did a little bit of a video of you sharing your story and talking about how the gospel applies to it. So we’d like to get into that but I’m just curious with the frequency of which you share this story, is it healing for you to keep talking about it? Is it empowering to you? How does it feel to be able to tell this story over and over and over again?

Rachael: You know that’s a dynamic that I’m honestly still wrestling a little bit with. It’s not an easy topic to tackle. It’s very personal. The fact that all of those details and they’re out there forever is something that I’m really still wrestling with to a point. And there is very much a dynamic where I felt especially for the first two years that God had given me a job I didn’t want. And this was not a platform I wanted ever. This was never something I imagined talking about, certainly much less ever being an advocate for. You know, and so it has been an interesting dynamic to take on a role and a job and an identity that I never wanted. But I do believe it is incredibly important to be faithful to where God has called you, I believe this is something that the church needs to tackle. And that there is desperate need for bringing the hope of the gospel to people that have been wounded this way. And so I want to do thte best I can to be faithful.

Pat: For people who haven’t heard your story, who haven’t watched the video that we were talking about or have been following the news, can you give a short recap of why you’re making headlines and why you have no privacy these days?

Rachael: Yeah, so I was the first woman to speak publicly against a very prominent physician, a world renowned physician named Larry Nassar. He was the team doctor for our United States Olympic Gymnastics team and our elite program and he was an adjunct professor and a physician at Michigan State University which is one of our biggest universities down here in the US. And so he was very very famous in the gymnastics world and very well loved. He had quite a gregarious, outgoing, warm, caring personality and so there is, or was, a lot of affection for him in addition to his, just his status in the gymnastics world. And so I was able to file a police report for the sexual assault he had committed against me and to speak very publicly. And the end result is that he was revealed to be one of the US’ worst serial pedophiles in recorded history. He is in prison for the rest of his life. And we are still working for institutional accountability for the many institutions that surrounded him and allowed him to be a predator for decades.

Pat: That is really tragic and really shocking that that could be happening. But at the same, the more that we hear about it, the less shocking it should be. We should be indignant and upset about it but it should be less shocking that there is such depravity in the world and people are carrying out such evil things and being protected. So, I don’t know, maybe you could share a little bit about why…Why do you think he was able to operate as long as he did other than him being like a charismatic guy and being really well liked? What were some of the factors that helped to shelter him and protect him while he did these things?

Rachael: Yeah, you know Larry is a perfect and famous example of dynamics that play out all over the place and in every country. Sexual abuse is something that is rarely handled properly. Most pedophiles, most sexual abuse takes place with someone that you know and so the abuser is someone who is very skilled at using circumstances, at using grooming techniques, at ingratiating themselves into a community so that if a survivor ever speaks up and ever says, “Something’s happening that shouldn’t be happening”, they will not be believed. We have a lot of stereotypes and old wives tales and myths that surround sexual abuse. Most typically when an abuse victim speaks up they are going to be attacked for having said anything. Attacked for ruining a good person, for having a sexualized mind that they would think something is going wrong, often attacked for wanting attention, wanting money, wanting to be famous. You know when you’re coming out against someone who’s a famous person. But those are dynamics every sexual assault survivor experiences. They’re not believed or they’re outright attacked and so what we really see here with Larry is just a national example of what sexual abuse survivors are suffering with on a daily basis in every part of the country in every walk of life.

Pat: Yeah, it’s really sad that society operates that way and I’m even, whenever I hear something about someone being accused and people defending the person who’s being accused, I try to put myself in the shoes of somebody who knows that person and I think of maybe the person that I most respect or most admire or look up to in my sphere and just imagine if someone came to me, a friend came to me, and said, “Oh, he abused me”, I think my brain would have a hard time computing that. It would be, like, difficult for me to understand. Oh what I know of this person is like they would never do that but to deny someone’s like testimony seems equally crazy if not more so because the desire to even pursue fame in that route…

Rachael: Nobody wants to be famous. Nobody wants to be famous for that.

Suz: I followed a lot of your writings and your research and stuff and I’ve heard you say before that statistically the people that come forward, like it’s very minimal, the ones that are lying. It’s like 2-8%.

Rachael: Yeah, 2-8 % of reports are false and the vast majority of those that are false are in child custody dispute cases. So statistically it is incredibly rare. But the thing I think we haven’t really realized as a society is that all of these dynamics that make us feel like it’s impossible for a person to be an abuser. That it feels impossible for that abuse to have occured. You know all those questions you’re asking the victim, how could that be? How could a person like this be an abuser? How could you have been abused in this particular set of circumstances? Those are all the dynamics that are making it possible for the abuse to be happening. Abusers know that. They ingratiate themselves into the community. They are very skilled manipulators. They’re relying on you having that response too. And so what we need to be doing is taking those claims seriously and at minimum saying, look we need to find out the truth and I’m going to help you report this. And I’m gonna help you find out the truth.

Pat: And on that note, it shouldn’t be surprising but this completely blew my mind when I read your statement on this…how frequently it happens in the church. And not just, you know, in any church, but the evangelical church in the States and I’m sure in Canada is very similar with regard to statistics. But, I think it was in the Christianity today article where you said that it actually probably happens more often in the Evangelical church than it does in the Catholic church yet the Catholic church is like known for this and they’re the butt of people are joking about it now. But meanwhile in like evangelical churches it’s happening. It’s happening more but for some reason it’s not getting the same attention.

Rachael: It’s a lot more difficult to track in Protestant denominations but what we do know is that the top 3 insurance companies of Protestant organizations – churches, Christian ministries, they receive more reports of abuse per year than the Catholic church insurance companies receive. And that’s really staggering if you think about it, because that’s only the top 3 for Protestant organizations whereas the Catholic church having the hierarchical system that it does, actually does a better job of tracking abuse reports than Protestant denominations do and yet we still often see a higher rate of reports. And then if you look at in our US system, our federal court system, the reason that Protestant churches are typically held liable in Federal Court – out of the last ten years, more than the last ten years, the number one reason that churches have been found legally liable to their parishioners with their exception of last year is for mishandling or failing to prevent childhood sexual abuse in the church. So we have a significant problem with abuse in the church and we have a very significant problem with how we handle it.

Pat: Why do you think it’s so rampant? Is it because churches are just like safe spaces and as you said before, predators are really good at finding those safe spaces to operate within? Is it because Christians are like supposed to be more trustworthy that they’re more protected? I mean speculative, but do you have any idea why it’s so so rampant in the evangelical church in particular?

Rachael: Yeah, unfortunately that really is part of the dynamic is that we have made it a safe place. A lot of churches are safe places for predators. Some of the foremost experts on childhood sexual abuse, Ann Saulter being one of them, has done an incredible amount of research of how abusers select their victims, how they select the places where they’re going to ingratiate themselves and one of the things she found is that they will often target faith communities particularly faith communities with high authority structures, a high view of authority. And because faith communities are much more likely to mishandle and misapply concepts of justice and forgiveness and grace, it ultimately makes it a very safe place for an abuser because the authority structure means that any child who speaks out, any victim who speaks out, is not going to be given priority. They’re going to be priority in terms of who’s believed and misapplying those concepts of justice and grace and forgiveness means that the victim will be pushed to “forgive and “forget”, “forgive and move on”, which is not a biblical definition of forgiveness by any means. But the theology that a lot of these churches hold when they misuse it, unfortunately makes churches a very safe place for predators.

–AD BREAK–

Pat: There’s something about, like, the theology that they use or that they twist that gives them the justification to down play it, to protect the people in power and I can’t get over the irony of churches being a safe place for predators and not being a safe place for victims. And in other situations too, where recently we had an episode about alcoholism and she said, the person on that podcast said, that she’s felt more safe in her alcoholics anonymous group sharing her story, than in her own church group. And, that seems like it’s the exact same situation where you probably feel much more safe outside the church than speaking up inside the church. What about the gospel is being so poorly twisted to justify these things? Is there some element that we are just like taking as Christians and twisting and injecting sin into it in order to use it for our own levers of maintaining power or prestige?

Rachael: Now that’s a really deep question because there’s a lot of theological reasons why churches do what they do. But one of the most interesting dynamics is when you’re dealing with a church, it is almost always theologically driven. You deal with say a State University, like in my case with MSU and you’re dealing with an institution that’s trying to protect money. They’re trying to protect reputation, they’re trying to protect their sports program. They have pretty obvious motivations for why they’re doing what they’re doing. And they are common motivations. But you deal with a church and you’re dealing with an ideology for why they’re handling abuse a particular way. The pastors and leaders are theologically committed to ideas that cause them to handle abuse poorly. That cause them to not even recognize abuse sometimes. That cause them to counsel victims in ways that are incredibly damaging to the survivors. And because it’s theologically motivated, it’s incredibly difficult to change that tide. Because when you start discussing these concepts of theology, when you start discussing what’s gone wrong in the church, the automatic presumption is you must hate the gospel. You must hate the church. You must be bitter because you had a bad experience with the church and the church often will really often batten down the hatches for lack of a better term. Because, they believe they’re being persecuted. They really believe they have done the right things and they really believe that you shining light on what they have done is further persecution to them. And so it almost empowers the church to continue doing what they’re doing. So it’s very difficult to deal with. In terms of the core theologies that often lead churches to do this, a really over realized view of authority is often at the heart of it. Pastors who do not believe that they need to look outside of the “gifts that God has given them” or the “authority that God has given them” in order to handle abuse. A real mistrust or distaste for secular authority. So that secular authority is not truly seen, civil authority is not truly seen as something that is given by God. That the civil government isn’t seen as a realm that we are submit to, even Pastors are to submit to. A misapplied view often times of male and female authority where a woman’s voice in practicality and in truth valued the way it needs to be. And then also misapplying concepts of grace and forgiveness. A view of forgiveness that essentially means you forget and you move on. The idea that if you respond properly to your abuse that the damage will go away, a minimization of the depth and the devastation of sexual assault. And often times, an incredible lack of knowledge for the dynamics of abusers, for how abusers operate, for what it looks like to enable an abuser because the Pastors haven’t gone outside of their own knowledge base to how to deal with the problem that is absolutely rampant in our culture and in our churches.

Suz: I was gonna say…I was gonna ask you to clarify the authority issue ‘cause when I was looking at it, the issues, I think it’s a power struggle. It’s a fear but those actually are in the theological discussion that you just said.

Rachael: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, you have to be careful how you discuss that because a Pastoral authority and a church authority is a good, godly, biblical thing. You know, God gave us the church. God gave us elders. God gave us Pastors and they do have authority to shepherd their flock and even to meet out church discipline. And so those are biblical concepts but when they are misapplied, when they get out of balance, when they’re not held in balance with the other authority structures that God has given us, including civil authorities, what you end up seeing even inadvertently and with good motivation, is an abuse of authority that makes it a safe place for predators and a very damaging place for survivors.

Pat: We have this funny complex sometimes in Canada of looking at the things that are sometimes that are sometimes happening in the States and being like, whoa, at least we’re like not that bad.

Rachael: There you go.

Pat: Things become, in certain pockets, become so hyperbolic but then there’s usually one or two voices that come out and actually we’re not better. And you know, things might look bad in the States in this area but if you look at it, we’re actually just better at diverting or ignoring it or downplaying it or accepting it as a part of it.

Suz: Or we don’t have the same amount of coverage or the same population so it’s not as prominent.

Pat: It’s not as prominent, people don’t really care what Canada thinks or what’s happening up there very often. So, it just doesn’t get as much coverage but I wonder how bad it even is up there in churches. Please correct me if this is a poor question to ask or maybe a bad, you know, thought experiment. But, Suz, as a woman if you were at a church in Canada, would you feel like empowered to stand up, to call out somebody who has mistreated you. Do you think you’d have that support? It doesn’t have to be tied to any specific church.

Suz: Ok, I was like…

Pat: I have no interest in down, you know, calling out any specific churches or anything like that. But just climate wise, I can’t even speak into it because I haven’t been in that situation or have been close to it.

Suz: So, when Rachael was speaking earlier for another thing that we were working on for a video, she had talked about how victims are always looking, or survivors, however you want to term both, looking is this safe. Is this place safe? I think for me, I don’t know where that comes from for me if I was abused or I don’t actually, I don’t think I was sexually abused. But in my personality or something, I am also looking around and seeing, Is this a safe place? And sometimes the dynamics of the church that I feel is there is sort of a power issue where I’m constantly questioning, can I trust those that are in authority over me? Can I trust that they want what is best for me? Or do they just want their own image to be protected or that they are, I don’t know. I don’t always get the flavour of humility in my church. So, I don’t know how to answer that question but I would have a hard time coming out I think and talking about wrong that was done to me unless I had someone else doing it for me or coming alongside me.

Pat: Yeah, I only ask that because there are plenty of examples probably just again by just sheer population wise in the size of churches and how many of them are in the States that there have been many allegations that have come forward and examples of churches handling it wrong. I must just not be aware of them but I’m not sure of any that have happened yet in Canada although I’m almost absolutely positive that it’s happening there to. But, I guess maybe for people that aren’t familiar with any of those cases, Rachael do you have any that stand out to you? Churches that have just severely mishandled a situation like this and where their obvious blind spots were in addressing it properly?

Rachael: Yeah, there have been…there’s been a substantial number of Christian organizations and churches in the last few years that have finally had to reckon with or at least been confronted with the way they have handled abuse and allegations of mishandling abuse in their churches. And this ranges from the Southern Baptist denomination and Page Patterson who is one of the most prominent presidents of our second biggest seminary down here finally being confronted with his counsel to women who are in both domestic and sexual abuse situations. You have a denomination called Sovereign Grace churches around whom allegations have been swirling for a decade and they have yet to submit to an independent investigation to examine those allegations. You have groups like Institute in Basic Life principles, Vision Forum ministries, Wheaton College, Baylor University, you know and I could go on and on and on and on and on. And you really see the same dynamics in all of those organizations. You see men who often times truly believe they have done the right thing. They’re committed to their theology. Their committed to the ideology and it makes it very difficult for them to even recognize what they have done. There’s a real unwillingness to submit to any kind of outside authority or independent investigation that can really look at the facts and get to the bottom. And so the automatic response is if you’re talking about these things, your attempting to damage the church. You must be bitter, you must be angry rather than saying, wait a minute, these allegations are serious. The consequences if we mishandle this are devastating to God’s children so we need to find out what really happened. We need to pursue the truth regardless of where the truth leads and to submit to an independent investigation and submit to outside authority to submit to someone that is skilled in being able to sift through the facts and sift through the evidence and reach a good conclusion. Churches are very unwilling to do that and because they’re unwilling to do that, what they consistently signal is speak up and we will attack your character. Speak up and you’ll automatically be viewed as someone who hates Christ, who is damaging the gospel, who has “zeal without knowledge” and what that really does is it communicates to predators that they’re safe and it communicates to victims that they’re not.

Pat: It’s just nuts to think or even imagine someone going up to a pulpit and saying that like outright, but it’s so evident in how these cases are handled that you might as well be doing that, walking up and using those words and just saying that in front of a congregation. But, I guess to be not completely 100% bleak, I noticed on your facebook page recently you were very pleased with how a church has called out abuse in their own church and the steps that they took. I’ll let you share in your own words. Share with us a little bit about that story and what you appreciated about how they addressed it.

Rachael: Yeah, and that is one of the most beautiful things for me to see is a church that does it well because it displays the glory of God. It displays the beauty of Christ. It displays a fully faceted picture of who God is – a God of forgiveness, a God of mercy, a God of grace, and a God of justice who takes sin very seriously. And what happened with this particular church was there was a leader that was found to have engaged in ultimately sexually abusive behaviour and at the time that this was discovered, the pastor was no longer at that church, but he had been. He had been a youth minister there and so the first thing that those in authority in that church did is they took the allegation seriously. They listened, they believed the survivors, and they went back to their church and said, look, these are the allegations if anyone has any information, please come forward. They made themselves a safe place. They put out a statement educating their congregation on what sexual abuse looks like because the particular behaviour this man had engaged and that they knew to that point was he was massaging someone, the boys feet, when he was counselling them. It’s very bizarre behaviour but this particular youth pastor admitted it was a sexual component to him. And so they properly defined sexual abuse and they educated their congregation so their congregation could understand, yes, these boys are victims. This was, there was a sexual component, this was sexual abuse. This is what sexual abuse looks like and we need to take that seriously. And then they began to get a flood of reports from people in their congregation who had been abused by this man, who had either not realized what was happening because they were too young, or who had not felt safe to speak up. But because the pastor made the church a safe place, and displayed God’s righteousness and God’s truth in relation to sexual abuse, abuse victims were able to come forward. And they helped those victims report to the police. And then they are pursuing an independent investigation through a wonderful organization that we have here in the States called Grace Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment. They’ve asked that organization to come in and to look at what happened in their church, to make sure that there was not mishandling of reports of abuse beforehand, to make sure that they have the right policies and the right procedures in place and that they are sending a very clear message that reflects God’s glory and God’s goodness in relation to sexual abuse. They’re submitting themselves to outside authority and by doing that they are signaling very clearly to predators, you will not be safe here because we take this seriously and we’re going to treat this like it matters. And they’re signaling to survivors that they are safe. They will be protected. They will be shepherd with grace and with compassion. And then they’re taking the time to educate the rest of the flock as to what abuse looks like and what abuse dynamics look like and really displaying God’s glory through the openness to repentance and the openness to accountability and just an incredible humility and compassion. It was very encouraging for me to see a church do that because it doesn’t happen often. But, when it does, it’s absolutely beautiful.

–Outro–